Would you want a midwife who asked you not to nurse in public?
Editor’s Note: As of Tuesday Evening 4/26/2011 at around 10pm, the wording on the SB238 Hearing page on Facebook was altered to remove the paragraph quoted below.
Today I was invited to a Facebook group for the Alabama Birth Coalition’s push to license midwives. There is a hearing in Alabama regarding their licensure and someone thought I might want to attend since I am an advocate for women. What ensued afterwards left me livid and as of 10pm this evening, vastly afraid of what happens when midwives become a part of the status quo through licensure. I’ve often questioned licensure for midwifery at different levels regarding care for women but this confirms for me what I’ve often thought should be obvious to others: licensing midwives does not protect women FROM midwives.
Facebook invite to SB238 hearing, coupled with the exact wording from the site:
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“Please wear your Sunday best, arrange for childcare for any children other than nurslings, and be respectful of the no nursing in public policy that we MUST adhere to. (There are very nice lounges in all the bathrooms with comfy chairs for nursing. This means no nursing in the halls, either.) If you can help out with childcare, please post on the wall of the event. We will provide more specific details as we are able.”
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Reasonable to have some guidelines regarding the attendance of small children at public government hearings? Of course! But in DIRECT VIOLATION of Alabama law, these mothers are also being asked not to nurse. Based on what? Some arbitrary law or guideline by the state or legislature? No.
This policy was put into place by ALMA, the Alabama Midwives Alliance. According to “Lobbying Lesson #8″, :
- Most public hearings take place on Wednesday; you must sign in at the front desk so you can find your hearing room. Arrive early so that you can go to the bathroom and get a good seat. Good conduct is very important, no sighing, snickering, whispering, eating or rolling eyes, please. Please bring nursing children only, nursing should be confined to the Ladies’ Lounge; there is one on every floor (the nicer ones are on the upper floors.)”
So what is the gist of this?
The licensure group for Alabama midwives has decided that nursing is not to be done in public because this “isn’t the place to fight that battle”. When asked about it on the Facebook page, they later deleted all the questions and comments regarding this issue rather than allow honest discourse. Someone evidently forgot to let them know that this battle had already been fought and legally, legislatively won.
These are the women we are expecting to ‘protect’ a woman’s right to nurse after childbirth, to help VBAC women give birth safely, to help women protect their lawful rights AFTER legislation? Will they then get upset if THEIR legal rights are compromised to further someone else’s cause? In telling women specifically not to nurse and in having policies about not nursing in public, in telling women that they shouldn’t offend a “room full of middle-aged men” versus actually simply acting normal, they have in turn treated nursing and pregnant women offensively and illegally.
This illustrates the principle very clearly that these midwives are willing to throw normal mothers under the bus in order to get their licensure. Why do we think that would change once licensure occurred?
I have tried to succinctly explain my stand on this issue by stating that I understand the issues at hand. I understand that there should be guidelines on younger children running loose in a hearing or in asking a crying infant’s mother to leave until her baby is quieted. Nursing infants should not be a disruption in such a hearing, especially if their mothers are not having to get up and leave every time they whimper rather than nurse them. Asking mothers to not nurse in the hallways or not be seen in public during these hearings is defeating at least part of the purpose of midwifery, to ensure that postpartum and nursing is a healthy period where women are confident in their ability to care for their infants.
To see a midwifery organization perpetuate the stereotypes inherent in this makes me very afraid for whose rights they will or will not stand up for once in legislation. It’s the slippery slope theory of licensure in the US that continually pits mother against mother and midwife against midwife, with every organization bending and bowing in order to get whatever they can pass, passed, and then pretending that there is safety in this or that once we get licensure, THEN we can protect rights.
I have only one thing to say. I wasn’t sure if I supported licensure in Alabama but I will in no way support either ABC or ALMA any further. And breastfeeding mothers in Alabama, do us all a favor and stand up to these “midwives” and get the hell out of the back of the bus!
The Facebook message I got after my Wall Post was deleted:
Kaleigh Rigdon Naylor
SB 238
Hello!
Kaleigh Naylor, ABC President, here! I wanted to take a moment to address your concerns about having ABC supporters refraining from public breastfeeding while attending the SB 238 hearing in the capitol on Wednesday. First, I must reiterate- we hate it too. Two of our board members are currently nursing infants. I will be nursing an infant again sometime in the next 1-4 weeks! We are indeed protected by law to feed our babies publicly by whatever means we choose. However, we are not going to the capitol on Wednesday to contest that issue. We are going to lobby for licensing CPMs in Alabama. There is a time and place for everything- and in the capitol at the hearing for our bill is neither the time nor place to promote public breastfeeding. I did not write the “Lobbying Rules” on the ALMA site. They were written by someone with infinitely more experience and knowledge regarding what it takes to get legislators to pay attention and to keep the opposition at bay. Therefore, I intend to adhere to and promote those rules. There is simply too much at stake to choose this time to test public comfort while at the hearing. On another day, in another place, I would be happy to promote and even attend a nurse-in! However, on Wednesday at the capitol we will ALL be acting as representatives of the Alabama Birth Coalition, whose current focus it is to provide Alabama families with the maternity care options they desire and deserve. We can only fight one battle at a time, and currently our choice is the battle for legalized midwifery.
I am not asking anyone to like this decision. I don’t even like it. I do ask for us all to respect it, though. Please, feel free to vent to me or to Dana Gale (our secretary and a nursing mother!) regarding your feelings. It’s not fun, and it’s not what we believe in, but I know we will all do what it takes to make the case for licensing CPMs in 2011.
Thanks for your support!
Kaleigh Naylor
President, Alabama Birth Coalition
I’m confused – they already have the legal right to breastfeed wherever, but they don’t want to exercise that right (contest is not the appropriate term here) because they are working on midwifery legislation? Wow. Shanon, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. If these midwives aren’t going to “allow” women to exercise their right to breastfeed wherever then what else aren’t they going to “allow” women to do? What a shame.
Wouldn’t it be fun if a bunch of folks went to the *public* hearing and, you know, nursed their babies. It is a public hearing and a public building after all. And one had the legal right to nurse a baby in public in Alabama. So really, what’s to stop any woman who wished to from doing just that.
Good idea, Amy!
I don’t think so at all. I have to agree with this one in that the rules of the hearing are specifically no eating in the hearing room and this rule should be applied to adults and nurslings. I am a big advocate for breastfeeding and the rights of women but if there is no food or drinks in the building (not sure if that is the case) then these nursing women should be glad the rules are being bent and allowing them to have a nursing room to nurse in.
You mean to tell me that the no eating rule should not apply to you. Well bring in a happy meal and munch on a cheese burger and see if you don’t get asked to leave. Snack on a big mac or suckling a breast, a meal is a meal and they are not allowed at this hearing. This has been taken in the wrong direction and I totally see where they are going with it. Breaking the rules would only make matters worse and make everyone look at the subject of breastfeeding advocacy how most people view PETA members, crazy and a little whacked out.
According to your logic then no woman with milk in her breasts should attend then. That doesn’t make any sense. So no bottles either? Then what should be communicated is that women with small children that need their mothers are not welcome.
I am opposed to licensure for many reasons. This is an example of midwives being willing to throw mothers under the bus for what they want. It is completely disingenuous to ask nursing mothers to high tail it to the bathroom when their infants are in need of nursing, rather than just quietly plug them in.
I think it is important to make everything about the parents we serve, rather than an image we are trying to promote. If licensure of midwives is not about parents, then what is it about? Third party reimbursement, the misuse of drugs, some kind of official midwifery status?
There is ample proof that throughout history, the licensure of midwives has NEVER been for the good of parents, but rather for the identification, regulation and elimination of midwives. The difference at this point in history is that this attack on parents’ rights to choose where and with whom they birth is NOT coming from the big bad medical community….but from midwives.
Ask the licensed midwives in Oregon, if licensure has increased the number of homebirths or how Arizona licensed midwives feel about not being able to serve women with birth scars. That would be about 40%……
Licensure buys into the idea that birth is medical and requires a medical attendant pre-approved by parents. That parents are too stupid or unqualified to choose who they want to attend this private family event. Birth is a normal function of biology, not a medical emergency. All efforts to protect parents would have that as their leading paragraph, don’t you think? Birth is not the domain of medicine or midwifery, and any attempt by either group to diminish the rights of parents to choose where and with whom they birth is criminal.
I believe that a far better approach would be to recognize the rights of parents to choose their own…..
I could not agree more!!!
Except in this case, unlicensed midwives are not legally allowed to attend homebirths in the state of Alabama. Women who don’t want a hospital birth have to have an unattended birth there, unless they can find an underground midwife who is willing to go to jail if she gets caught. If unlicensed midwives were allowed to practice without fear of legal action, it wouldn’t even be an issue. In this case, homebirth is largely not an option for most parents because midwives aren’t legally allowed to attend them.
So wait, this coalition is adhering to lobbying ‘suggestions’ over a constitutional right to feed a baby in public? It’d be better to shirk off to a restroom to feed a baby than (perhaps discreetly) nurse in public (as is a mother’s right) and participate in the legislative process (also a right)?
I’m very confused.
It also says there is no eating in the hearing room. This applies to adults and babies alike. I would be willing to be there is no food or drinks allowed in the building so for them to have nursing rooms for nursing women is a great thing that they should be thankful for. I think this has been taken in the wrong direction and is another one of those articles that has been posted to get people worked up.
I’d agree, but the replies from the coalition have made it very clear that this has nothing to do with a “no eating” rule and everything to do with fear of making others uncomfortable. They consider nursing a baby to be “promoting public breastfeeding” as a movement instead of just feeding your child because they’re hungry. Please stop trying to use the no eating thing as a defense.
I would also argue that people adhering to the “no eating policies” are not being made to enter into the bathroom to partake of their food. I mean really midwives, are we sending women and their nursing babies into the bathroom to feed their children! Which side are you on? Are you evolving into the political machine or are you free and independent thinkers here? Are you so desperate to get the legislatures backing that you are willing to throw the women who you serve under the bus? Without your sisters, there would be no you!
I’m pretty sure they have a “no urinating or deficating” rule in the hearing room too, but babies WILL be doing that in that room, in their diapers. Breastfeeding moms cannot, physically, enter the room without their baby’s food and drink as it’s part of their body – not like they can set it on a table outside the room with their Blackberries and Starbucks mugs.
Your “we should be thankful they have nursing rooms” totally reads, to me, like “we should be thankful they have SEATS at the back of the bus! Go sit back there and shut up now, and be grateful they don’t make you STAND while they take you for a ride you paid for!”
While I too agree that its not ideal. I don’t see this as them “throwing women under the bus”. It is a strategy for battle. And nothing more. They want the people they are presenting their arguments and facts to to be listening. Maybe they are siding towards denial, but hearing a few facts may change their mind. If they are distracted by the scene of a nursing woman, no matter how normal, natural, and legal it may be, they may not hear the case being presented to them fully. There may be people who have never seen a woman nurse on the deciding board. The goal being to be heard, facts presented, digested and (ideally) choices made on facts not opinion, assumption, and personal ideas. As they said, there will be other forums for normalising nursing in public. I know everyone stands on different side when it comes to licensure. And we all support women’s rights to nurse there babies when and where they choose with out harrassment. But I think everyone is missing the point in this case. I don’t see this as harsh midwives trying to belittle women, I see it as strategy to accomplish the goal of opening more options to Alabama birthing women. Period.
It’s a STUPID strategy! You don’t get together a group of progressive, outspoken activists and ask them to stop being activists in one area so that you can advance your cause in another area. That is just ASKING for a backfire,a nd anyone with any strategy know how whats-so-ever should have known that. If you piss people off how do you expect them to support you. Stupid, stupid, shortsighted idiocy.
I have to come back to the same thing I said on Facebook regarding this.
If an obstetrician told women they couldn’t nurse in public in his office, we would be up in arms.
If our governor announced tomorrow that we couldn’t nurse in the Capitol building, there would be nurse-ins.
These were MIDWIVES and they didn’t discuss HOW to be cognizant of impact, how to minimize impact, or how to be watchful. Instead, they instituted an official policy for two organizations that violates state law, completely abrogating those mothers’ and babies’ rights. That is inexcusable.
Yep..burn the midwives cause its all their fault. Lets just blame the midwives so we can keep AL an illegal state. Cause we dont need midwives at all. We dont want to fight for the midwives who have served this state in illegal capacities for years. We dont value the women who have sacrificed everything to be with a woman who did not want a hospital birth. We dont care that midwives are on call most all the time for every client they serve to the extent of not having a life. And certainly us asking the midwives to attend us should stop too cause it Is ILLEGAL!!!!!
So good job focusing on the breastfeeding issue cause then we can keep the midwives down..we can keep them underground and hiding and unable to fully serve as professional caregivers to pregnant women. This way Alabama can stay in the dark ages and women can only have untrained attendants or none at all-which of course is better cause those midwives just mess things up.
So keep up this fight!!!!– make sure those arrogant and cruel midwives stay out of this state–but hey we can breastfeed legally (which darn it ABC helped out with but that was obviously a ruse to gain favor for those damn midwives!!!)
If the midwives there are too stupid to reaqlize that asking the mothers not to nurse is both ILLEGAL and completely destructive to their cause then maybe they’re not smart enough to be practicing in the first place. Just sayin’.
Yes, because there is absolutely no middle ground here. Either women need to hide in the bathrooms to feed their babies at a hearing or midwives need to all be outlawed and sent to jail forever. Clearly.
They may want to remind ladies not to bring interracial children either since that might be contriversial or offend some people. Never mind no one has a right to not be offended but there IS a right to not be asked to not nurse! You’d think ONE woman in that group would realize that policy is in violation of state and federal law and asking for a lawsuit. Bite the hand that feeds much?
“if they are distracted by the scene of a nursing woman….they may not hear the case being presented to them fully”
I think that says it all right there…
Nursing women and babes are not distracting – except maybe if you’re a 13 year old boy who hasn’t been around mothers enough! GIVE ME A BREAK!!! Are they seriously trying to say that the health officials in the room are not able to stand the sight of a babe and mother feeding??? Are they seriously thinking that these officials are THAT immature???
Are we not all ADULTS??? This is absolutely INSANE, and the midwives group is doing nothing but perpetuating – nay even CREATING a culture that is belittling and antagonistic towards mothers and children…that is exactly what they are doing. Perhaps they should give everyone in the room a little more credit for having their heads screwed on a little tighter than they. Mothers and babies nurse…. it is just what HAPPENS…many times – every day. Time to grow up people
“Are we not all ADULTS??? This is absolutely INSANE, and the midwives group is doing nothing but perpetuating – nay even CREATING a culture that is belittling and antagonistic towards mothers and children…that is exactly what they are doing.”
I just don’t think its that simple. I agree with the poster who mentioned the middle ground. Im not saying its right to make any “Rule”, because as mentioned, that illegal and a violation of rights, but as the other poster said- they know the people they are against. Quite possibly a bunch of conservative men who don’t agree with our stance on nursing, legal or not.
I still remember the first time I saw a woman nurse in front of me. It was in my childbirth class during my first pregnany. I was totally distracted (and very interested), and missed a lot of that class that night watching her, her baby. Id never seen it before. As time went on, it became more normal and when my child was born we nursed anywhere. But to say seeing it before me when it was out the normal for me caught my attention and did distract me from what I was supposed to be listening to. And in that setting it was no big deal. But if you have a small period in time to present your case, on something that can be life changing (regardless of where you stand on this issue) do you want any distractions? Even good, healthy legal ones.
To be clear, Im not saying violating any woman’s rights is ok. Ever. But I can understand where they may have been coming from is all. Could this have been handled different? Probably. I imagine if the women attending, understood why the request was being made, they might understand. To say nursing is never distracting is being oblivious to reality. Distraction isn’t always a problem, but sometimes it is. This is also a one time request (from what Ive seen, forgive me if Im in error on this), so its not the same as banning it from OB offices, etc.
Wendy, to be fair, there were a few women inside the group who questioned. Their comments were also deleted. That is actually what completely set me off. Intelligent discourse, not allowed. When women’s rights aren’t protected by a group that purports to support women, there is a problem. This is part and parcel of what this licensure movement is doing to us. The choices are NOT ‘cave and be licensed’ or “be prosecuted”…we have more choices than that and ethical behavior should always be followed, regardless of legal status.
They are actually treating these people as though they can’t be part of the process, either, unless they play by their rules. It’s as though they’re saying, “Don’t even come unless you’re going to do it our way.” As others said earlier, it doesn’t bode well for the future after licensing, does it?
Also, am I the only one who gets upset with the idea that they’re telling women to GO TO THE BATHROOM to nurse? Hello!!!!
If they pointed out what they thought to women (‘Nursing may be very distracting to the committee and they may not hear us; could nursing mothers please step out to nurse or sit in the back or try to not be distracting, or come up with something in order to not distract the committee’), I think it would show more respect for those they claim to be representing. I think these women probably forgot that it was probably *these same legislators* who voted for breastfeeding in public to be legal.
I’ve nursed everywhere. Trains, synagogues, museums, parks and at the NYS Capitol.
Having the legal right to breastfeed in public does not make it culturally acceptable. And unfortunately the midwives are perpetuating the problem by insisting that their members nurse elsewhere.
The real shame, however, is that the group is most likely correct. A mother nursing her baby may be seen as a radical and distracting statement, rather than on that is natural and logical.
The solution is actually quite straightforward. If you find that your elected official is in fact offended or distracted by nursing women, act in the most American of ways and VOTE them OUT of office.
This is so incredibly frustrating for those of us on the front lines of this issue in Alabama. The focus has been torn away from the real issue- getting a LONG over due bill passed- and put on what should have been a non issue- 2 hours on a single day where nursing should be kept private.
Alabama Birth Coalition fought for breastfeeding rights years ago and was successful in getting legislation passed to protect nursing mothers. It’s done. We have those rights.
Now, ABC is working to get midwives licensed. Because we have been to the capital and seen how it works, we asked that mother’s refrain from nursing in public. The last time we went in with nurslings in tow and exercised that right, we set ourselves back 2 years. 2 years of regaining ground after 10 years to get to that point. We can’t let that happen again. And if our lawmakers were understanding and supportive of nursing and birth, we wouldn’t NEED to have a hearing because our bill would have been passed YEARS ago!
We are simply trying to play the game of politics. Unfortunately, and I sincerely mean that as I am leaving my own infant nursling in the care of another so that I may attend the hearing, nursing in the hearing will only hurt our cause.
We deleted comments from the event page because it was detracting from our purpose, not because we don’t allow intelligent discourse.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE hear me when I say that it is NOT an ideal situation and we would NEVER ask this of mother’s if we didn’t think it was absolutely necessary.
All of this is hurting our cause. Please, look at the bigger picture and stop focusing on this aspect.
We can’t afford to lose ground again- we are all UNPAID volunteers working to get better maternity care options in Alabama.
PLEASE don’t hurt our chances.
Ummmmm … are you trying to say that nursing in public was the REASON that your efforts didn’t pan out the way you wanted last time you had face time at the capitol? What would make you say that?? Did they stand up and begin berating the nursing mothers and insist that they leave? Ridiculous.
The “bathroom” is actually a separate room with a door of its own adjacent to the bathroom. It’s a lounge with comfy couches and chairs that is NOT in the bathroom- it just happens to be in the same area.
According to federal law, it IS NOT an appropriate place to express breastmilk for working mothers. If it isn’t good enough to express milk in, it isn’t good enough to nurse in.
“someone with infinitely more experience and knowledge regarding what it takes to get legislators to pay attention and to keep the opposition at bay”
I’m very aware of the fact that zero gender reference was made there. Makes me VERY sure that she was trying hard to hide the fact the advice came from a MAN, who has no concept of exactly how much more disruptive trying to LEAVE a room with a fussing baby instead of just popping baby onto boob is.
I was part of getting Ohio’s law protecting breastfeeding in public passed. I brought my then-6mo 1st born to hearings about it, and breast fed him in a sling, head uncovered, next to a bunch of men in suits on their Blackberries. Media people asked if they could take pictures (and I allowed them). When my turn came, I got up AS THE ONLY PRIVATE CITIZEN THERE (every other person offering testimony was doing it as a representative of some formal organization), and gave my testimony. I was asked about being “discrete” and I told them sure, I give it a try, but there are TWO humans engaged in every act of breastfeeding and ONE of them might take very serious issue with having their head covered, thus rendering the attempt FAR from discrete as the baby uses the covering as a flag for passers-by. The word “discrete” does not appear in Ohio’s law
Some midwives bought me lunch for that little effort and joked about starting a fan club LOL
I would advise anyone bringing babies – nursing or otherwise – to hearings to sit toward the back, so as to be able to remove themselves if a diaper needs changing, loud noises startle/upset the baby, or the baby is just too distracted to settle (with breast, with bottle, whatever) by the closeness of other people – these hearings can be rather crowded. It’s the same reason I sit in the back of the sanctuary at church (and I stuck a Boppy there on the back of the pew so anyone who needs it has easy access
I’m pretty sure that breastfeeding happens in our sanctuary most Sundays, there have been at least 3 or 4 of us nursing simultaneously in the last few pews at various services, and some of the older nurslings’ families tend to sit a little further up so I can’t always tell if they’re nursing or napping). With their attention at the individuals speaking, they are unlikely to even realize the baby is nursing in the back or side of the room. They are MORE likely to be annoyed by the presence of a baby that is not nursing at the moment, but instead making cooing noises (especially if they are older men with hearing aids – the sounds from the observers, including sighing, laughing, cooing babies, and such are all equally amplified by hearing aids and often make it hard for the person with hearing loss to focus on the individual speaking. Hopefully they’ve been with-it enough to install Assistive Listening Equipment so that the microphone people giving testimony into is able to be amplified directly into hearing aids via an external receiver and cord, but I wouldn’t count on it, or on the reliability of such, given personal experience as an individual with auditory difficulties).
There is middle ground that the midwives are TOTALLY missing. The admonition not to nurse in the hallways, that’s the real straw that breaks the camel’s back IMO. “Don’t distract the legislators in the hearing room” is one thing and may just be poorly considered advice that I would think had some wiggle room. “Don’t breastfeed anywhere a man might POSSIBLY see you, even though that right is already legally protected” is a sure-fire way to have a large group intentionally nursing in the hallway RIGHT outside the hearing room, in my experience, regardless of who issued the edict.
“There is middle ground that the midwives are TOTALLY missing. The admonition not to nurse in the hallways, that’s the real straw that breaks the camel’s back IMO.”
YES! This is the whole point! Well, that whole paragraph, but I didn’t want to waste too much space pasting the whole thing over.
Ahmie, we need to hang out!
LOL well I’m in Cleveland, Ohio and always up o having new cool friends to hang out with, particularly ones who aren’t going to run screaming if I start to feed my nursling.
Sophia, I think you’re missing the point of this blog post. No one is blaming the midwives, or jumping on this hot button issue to distract from the goal of the midwives. If any other group posted this same thing, I’m sure it would cause a similar outrage. I think it’s safe to assume we all want the same thing- access for all women to information, education and support for the healthy births of their children.
IMO, the main issue is that Midwives around the country have been sacrificing the legal rights of women in exchange for licensure of midwives. In this situation, the ALMA is asking moms to give up their documented -legal in the state of Alabama- RIGHT to feed their babies in public in support of Midwives getting licenses. Once they have that license, what else will they ask women to give up?
Isn’t knowing your “enemy” half the battle? We KNOW what our lawmakers are like We KNOW how they feel about nursing in the courtroom. We’ve been there and done that- literally.
No one in our organization likes this.
We MUST play the political game if we have ANY chance at gaining better maternity care for AL families.
ALBirther, I totally understand that. I realize that while women have the legal right to breastfeed in public it’s not likely to be generally accepted by these lawmakers you are trying to reach. I personally think it would have gone over better if perhaps the request was phrased the way your post was.
I also feel that if more mothers were nursing in public it would take away from the stigma of it. How can we expect nursing in public to be accepted as something strong professional, intelligent women DO if we are telling birth activists NOT to do it. How many nursing moms will now not turn up to support this hearing?
Honestly nursing in public is NOT the issue. The issue is that once again women are being told in no uncertain terms that they have to give up certain personal rights. The very group that is asking for their support is denying them their rights. MIDWIVES are taking away women’s rights. Midwives, the awesome women that sacrifice their lives and their families to support us during the greatest moments of are lives. If we allow midwives to take away any of our rights, how can we expect fair treatment from any other organization?
EXCELLENTLY put, Michelle. I personally think there is a social ineptitude being demonstrated – well-intentioned, BEST of intentions even, but still inept – in how this is being handled, which is undermining the community. I would argue it doesn’t really matter so much IF licensure becomes legally recognized, if the trust of the clientel has been damaged. It’s not like there’s a HUGE percentage of women clammoring for this service to begin with, population-wise. Can’t a united front be presented to the legislators? Heck, I’ve seen more unity between Pro-Life and Pro-Choice factions on the out-of-hospital-birthing topic than I’m seeing here. I GET why, really, I do…. but do you really want to win the battle while setting yourself up to lose the war? The licensure might go through, and then constrain midwives to ONLY moms that are so “low risk” that they’re a minuscule part of the population (neither over or under weight, no prior c-section, GBS negative [just look at Florida right now], head-down singleton, and on and on and on) until only maybe 10% of pregnant women even QUALIFY for CPM care out-of-hospital, then you have to try to convince them that they WANT an out-of-hospital birth. If you then want to go back and loosen the restrictions, who are you going to ask to show up and help? How many of those bridges are getting burned at the moment?
Yes! Thank you. You’ve explained my thoughts clearer than I seem to be able to today.
I am in Florida and also agree licensure is not the “be all, end all” that some organizations make it out to be. I’ve had a Cesarean and a VBAC and if I were to get pregnant again in this state, I don’t have any birthing options.
The bridges are being burned in Alabama with this kind of attitude. I would like to know what “kind” of women are being thrown aside for the licensure. VBACs? Special Scars? GBS+?
I know this isn’t the issue at hand but I wouldn’t say there aren’t ANY birthing options in FL. I had a vbac at home last year legally. If I got pregnant again, I’d have more options than I had before. Being a secondary vbac, I’d also have the option of a birth center.
Jenny,
A vbac cannot be attended in a birth center in Florida under ANY circumstances, even a second vbac.
oh and regarding the importance of licensure – I’m conflicted on this myself. Paying out-of-pocket for out-of-hospital birth is a non-option for families already living in poverty and many working-class families. It’s hard enough for many middle class families these days, with job insecurity, to spare the cash. Licensure means that Medicaid might pay for it (can’t remember, I *think* the health care reform bill kept the amendment regarding that in it, but I could be wrong & don’t have the time to look it up right now). If Medicaid pays for it, private insurance generally starts being willing to pay for it. This increases access. My family is solidly middle class (though my husband does not have job security thanks to our “we need tax cuts for millionaires more than proper funding of our public institutions” governor). Putting aside the money for the more “expensive” midwives in the area was hard enough for us. Our insurance won’t even cover out-of-hospital birth (we homebirth) as “out of network” since there is no licensure option in Ohio, and the most expensive one charges $2500 for “all-inclusive” care from what I remember (the midwife we had attend us is much more financially flexible and trusts people to pay to the best of their ability, and has the luxury of being able to afford that mindset – she inherited her house so has no mortgage payment, and her husband has a very steady job that covers all the bills). I do co-care with my family practice doctor for my prenatals and that doctor is my backup because she feels she can’t attend homebirths or she’d be my birth attendant because I’m that comfortable with her, so I don’t really WANT all the prenatal attention from the midwife.
I have several friends planning to start their families in the coming years that feel they cannot, for financial reasons, consider out-of-hospital birth as an option unless licensure happens in Ohio. I introduce as many of them as I can to my midwife and she helps who she can, but she can’t take them all and the others are constrained by the bills THEY have to pay – and there’s a small enough supply of midwives that they have trouble meeting demand as it is. Licensure is a way to make the vocation more appealing to new midwives, as if it’s insurance-billable, they have more certainty of being paid for their services than the more casual (and of questionable legal enforcement ability) agreements/contracts they have now.
FWIW, my own midwife is pretty anti-licensure and would opt not to get licensed if Ohio started offering licenses. She says she’d stop calling herself a midwife if that’s what it took to not have to get a license, she’d just be “that lady that tends to show up and bake a cake at your house when you’re close to having a baby”
Licensure does not guarantee that Medicaid will pay. Most midwives will work for trade or help families make payment arrangements.
I’m a student midwife in Ohio, if the legislation passes in Ohio (which I’m praying it doesn’t) I will also not call myself a midwife so that I can avoid all the needless regulations that will force me to not care for the women who truly need my care. I love her new title though! lol I’ll have to think of something like that.
Jessica – you said above you wanna hang out, then you just mentioned you’re in Ohio. I’m in the Cleveland area and easy to find on FB if you’re on there (Ahmie is my real first name). Send me a friend request if you’d like. My midwife is not online but I could likely introduce you down the line if you’re in the Cleveland or Akron area (or travel to). I have no intention of ever being a midwife or even doula (I’m physically disabled), but I will show up and be present, loving support for any woman who asks for me while pregnant, birthing, or early postpartum (I’m considering sitting the CLC test) to help with babywearing, breastfeeding, and such. It’s my avocation, not my vocation. Vocationally, I am hoping to earn a PhD in Social or Medical Sociology and study early parenthood issues and human development in the first half of the life span.
Sweet! I’ll look for you.
I’m on Fb too.
Unfortunately, licensure and third party reimbursement both come with their own set of problems, not the least of which is both restrict the type of person who can receive their services. Take a gander at some of the states where licensure is already in place … look at their regulations on who can and can’t be attended by their legal midwives (since anyone who chooses not to get licensed by default becomes illegal). I haven’t had a cesarean, breech, multiples, pre-eclampsia, high blood pressure, heart disease, my 35th birthday, preterm or postdates baby, etc etc etc etc … but I would still be effectively disqualified from a homebirth with a licensed midwife in at least one state that I looked into because I have a history of “abnormal cervical cytology” … ten years ago. Licensure and third party reimbursement restricts the practice of midwives at the expense of mothers.
While it sounds like some mistakes were made in communication, the point is that alienating your legislators, who already are probably weirded out enough by the idea of homebirth, is just not strategic. I nurse whenever, wherever – but when I go to the capitol of our state to lobby, I go nurse in one of the spots suggested. Because a legal midwife is more important to me than making a one time statement. The rest of my time as a nursing mother in the public eye will more than compensate for a few times of rolling my eyes and going to bat for midwifery by nursing out of eyesight of our legislators, who are typical of our culture in their feelings about breastfeeding in public. Yes, we need to change that culture… but we also need legal midwives available for mothers. I had a transport situation recently where my legal midwife called ahead (and L&D was ready for us) & handed over her records and stayed with me through our whole stay. Had I had the same situation with my first, I would have had to go to the ER & been treated like i’d had no prenatal care. Do I like not nursing in public at the capitol? No… but as a temporary compromise, i’ll do it.
“Temporary compromise.” That says it all, right there.
Sigh. Here goes….S, J, and M….
I’m finally finding my voice. Even if it shakes.
While I worry about certain aspects of licensure, in the trenches here in ALABAMA…I feel it is needed….we need midwifery LEGAL. It’s not even ALEGAL…it’s ILLEGAL for a CPM, LM, etc to attend a homebirth. period. So this isn’t even SOLELY a licensure issue…. And you are thwarting that by getting facts mixed up and causing a big stink about a separate issue. And that is why you were deleted. The ALABAMA mothers were not. You are talking out of your ass when you say “bathroom”….it’s nice lounges w/ comfy chairs totally separate from the bathrooms. How many moms and working mothers have fought for that to pump and nurse in? (and NO ONE said ANYTHING about “not being allowed to nurse in the building” which you erroneously state in your more recent post.) But THIS IS ALABAMA. Yes, we’re years behind you, here….so…we, the birth activists who LIVE HERE….the MOTHERS (not the MIDWIVES) know how to work within that system…..we have a WOMAN lobbyist working daily on our behalf, advising us. It’s a theater style room, where the seats go steeply up and so there’s no sitting in the back w/ your sling and nursing discreetly…though I still feel that it could possibly just “happen” that a mom could do this w/out being noticed….but many moms like myself could NOT nurse discreetly w/ large boobs w/ an older baby who pops on and off, etc BABY STEPS. More mothers ARE nursing in public here, but the numbers are still the LOWEST IN THE COUNTRY here, …women actually think it’s gross, to nurse PERIOD…we’re fighting WOMEN as much as we are MEN in attitudes about nursing…. so we know what we are working with. Let us get this midwifery bill passed, get midwives serving more women LEGALLY and then we’ll do a nurse-in on the steps of the capitol!! LATER….. And this is not being FORCED upon us women, but is more of a woman to woman pleading and begging, because they know what helps…. Our own new governor is a “southern white male doctor”….we’re fighting a HUGE battle here…..and I’m damned tired of the “infighting” going on….we’ll never “progress” if we don’t band together. But we ARE a very small BAND here in ALABAMA….so we can’t go FULL FORCE in there ON EVERY ISSUE AT ONCE…..we got nursing in public on the books, yes, but there’s still cultural issues…once we get midwifery, there’ll be a ton of those cultural issues to fight through THEN (like angry doctors on transports still etc I”m sure) …..but we have to take it one step at a time….or we’ll get NO WHERE. sigh. I just saw a mom this morning who said “I would have had a homebirth w/ a midwife IF IT WERE LEGAL.” The majority of women are not radical activists…hey, we’ll work on that LATER….let’s just get it LEGAL for now….for MOST women…… then we’ll work on other stuff later…. PLEASE!!!!! Because the more women who say, Yeh i had a home birth with a midwife and it was SO GREAT and yes it’s legal, you should do it too! The more women who will do it…(Gen Y’ers make decisions like that remember?) .and then there will be a larger ARMY to go in and say, hey let that VBAMC mom do it too! Hey, let that special scars mom do it too. But right now? While CDC says that Alabama has 18% out of hospital births going on under the radar….we have very few women standing up and shouting about it….BECAUSE ITS NOT LEGAL. They are afraid….and we are in the South like it or not, and as much as they want to say they’re strong Scarlet O’hara’s or wth ever….they aren’t…they are “polite” and they “obey their elders” or whatever….or women don’t want to go against their husbands who are afraid of it because it’s NOT LEGAL.(heard that one today too)…..or whatever….SO talk more with the MOTHERS here….talk more offline w/ the ABC/ALMA ppl and really get your facts straight……take a minute to assess the situation HERE, not for Ohio, or Florida…..These are birth junkie, homebirthing, sling wearing, breastfeeding, activist women and mothers……who’ve learned a thing or two over the years about the system HERE, and are just working it to their advantage. Believe me…they will be fighting for the nursing in public LATER on…….I know them. And love them dearly. The Midwives too. Who risk it all every single day. Under cover. And I. Stand. With. THEM. Not AGAINST them. In fact I’m riding up to the capitol tomorrow with one of them….and how DARE you talk about her in such a way, to say she is throwing us under the bus. You have no idea what you are talking about.
I believe in allowing everyone public discourse about a subject but I won’t let an untruth stand.
There were several Alabama mothers who were also deleted for questioning this.
Amanda – All I can say is I call them as I see them. I really don’t think people are that much different in Alabama from the ones in Ohio.
I’m glad you found your voice. Keep using it.
I’d like to say again, this is not a nursing in public vs. licensure for midwives issue. My issue from the beginning was that the ALMA stated in no uncertain terms, “do not nurse”. I am not okay with ANY group enforcing that kind of policy or taking away women’s rights. We have a hard enough time as it is and now for an edict like that to come from MIDWIVES, makes it all the more hurtful. Midwives are supposed to be on our side. They are supposed to be “with women”.
If they had worded it differently…. perhaps asking women to not do it during the hearing. Or pointing out the situation of the rooms as you just did Amanda and reminding moms of the prejudice you will be facing, I wouldn’t have a much of a problem with it.
Actually it’s not illegal for anyone to give birth at home with whomever they choose. What is illegal in AL is for a midwife to attend the birth. It is our inalienable rights as women to give birth where and with whom we choose. The government doesn’t have to give us “permission” to birth with a midwife. And truth be told, the laws preventing midwives from serving a mother are ILLEGAL themselves, because they limit the inalienable rights of women.
Yes, I would want a midwife who asked me not to nurse in public if my only other option was no midwife at all.
I understand your frustration, yet I really disagree with your position. Of course it is not right, but unfortunately the politics in this country are wackadoodle… and sometimes you have to play the game to win the game.
“There are no rules, we’re trying to accomplish something” is a famous quote by Thomas Edison that comes to mind.
I feel it is unfair to accuse these midwives of not being trustworthy based on this request about nursing. These appear to be individuals who are committed to the process of change. They are working towards progress(clearly at costs that betray their ideals).
I imagine they are doing what they believe will forward their position. It is unfortunate for their to be such a distraction from the real cause. It feels like a civil war among individuals who really all want the same thing. That is very sad indeed!
Constituents should not be expected to look like legislators in order to be heard. I am thinking of that old saying: government OF the people, BY the people, FOR the people. I am kinda dumbfounded that lobbyists, etc, are telling CITIZENS to look and act like the legislators in order to get stuff passed. Did they learn nothing from “Legally Blonde”?
so what if ONE mother nursed and because of that the senate didnt pay attention and they don’t legalize midwifes… i am an Alabama woman who when i get pregnant want a midwife, and i would rather not travel an hour and a half to get that care because of this. i understand it is our right to nurse in public, but do realize in alabama people are VERY conservative and most don’t like breastfeeding in public. So i dont see the point in chancing the whole bill just for one day of breastfeeding… and maybe the senate wont care if you breastfeed, but if this bill isnt passed because of someone breastfeeding you are damn right i would be pissed! its one day ONE. and yes i plan on breastfeeding in public when i have a child, i am in no way trying to take that away. people have the right to firearms but the sure as hell cant take then into the building, so please do it for the sake of midwifes and mothers wanting midwifes.. this is bigger than one person!
After giving birth in Pennsylvania with a midwife at a birthing center (all natural, drug free, etc.), I went on to UC with my second child and I’m not pregnant with my third and will UC this time as well. If a midwife doesn’t support ALL of natural birth, ALL of my rights as a woman … I don’t want her. I had to scream at the midwife during my first birth to “get the fuck away from me!” and “NO!” when she said she was going to cut an episiotomy. Had I not pushed my son out with all of my strength in mere seconds she likely would have done it anyway. THAT is not the kind of midwife who should be attending births. Sounds like you’ve got it even worse down in Alabama. Show up, and nurse your baby. That is your legal right.